Thoughts 10/28/2007 October 28, 2007
Posted by Kelsey Martineau in Philosophy, Religion.Tags: Philosophy, Religion
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Tests from God. Do they exist? This very question has plagued my mind for the last week or so, because of things I’ve been experiencing. I guess the truth is, in my life as of late, the existence of God as I’ve always perceived Him, has changed a little. I still believe in God, I just don’t know what to believe. I don’t know how much to accept from the Bible as accurate, and I’m searching for the answer as to why I should arrogantly accept Christianity as the “right” religion. However, I’ve had experiences in my life that help me believe. Christians use the word “heathen” to describe religions that they believe are wrong from their own personal standpoint, or simply use it for people that do not attend church. The thing that most Christians do not understand however, is that the word was used far before Christianity was born. The arrogance of most Christians bothers me. There’s a religious arrogance that some take that just gives you the vibe that they think they are right, and the rest of the world is wrong. There are also civil disputes within sects of Christianity. Baptists vs. Methodists vs. Catholics vs. <insert any other here> The doctrines of beliefs sometimes vary greatly.
Does God test you to the point where you will become an Atheist? Does that make sense? For an example, if you know the story of Job, you know that Job got royally screwed throughout the story. I stop and ask myself if I lost that much, would I have remained faithful to God? I feel like my faith has been tested so much over the spring and summer. Things that I never thought would have happened to me, actually did happen. I think 2007 overall has been a crappy year for most people. Is it God testing me? Is God testing all these other people? If so, how far is it going to go? What else am I going to have to endure to prove that I am faithful? If I theoretically renounced Christianity and became an Atheist or an Agnostic, and all these hardships were “tests,” is that what God wants? Let’s philosophically twist the idea; Let’s say I fail the test. God knew I was going to pass or fail, so why should I endure it? Didn’t God know whether or not Job was going to remain faithful? I get so tired of hearing the phrase that suffering builds character, etc… Such an overused, scapegoat phrase.
I feel like I give out more in life than I receive. I don’t really say that arrogantly, it’s just the truth. I feel like I keep on giving and giving to people, and I am the one that gets screwed in the end. I feel like this year has changed my outlook on a lot of things. My trust in people for one thing. It’s been completely and utterly destroyed. I went to trusting almost every friend and acquaintance I know, to trusting about six people on the planet. But, maybe that’s not such a bad thing.
What an interesting post. I have to say though, I think you really need to put a lot of time (and prayer?) into this question. You never know where it will lead, and you need to give it an honest look. I would encourage you to not just look at the external circumstances (i.e. events that have occurred) but to also really think about what you believe. The reason I say this is that I left Christianity after 10+ years of active participation. It is not an easy decision, and it’s one that is rife with questions. For me, it was the only option. But, whenever people are really questioning their faith, I like to think that they are honestly searching.
I couldn’t go the route of atheism, because I truly believe in some sort of creator. Atheism is not the only option. Just remember to not let disappointing experiences with other people to affect your spiritual life. Good Luck.
I understand your words totally – there is much about Christianity as it is presented by churches and Christians today that give reason to doubt accepting it. I think it’s up to the individual to explore, really explore, what it is truly about – read what Jesus said, his message, and analyze it, try to understand it. I think if more people did that, without prejudice or wanting to read into it what they want, they would see the fundamental message is one of how we should live, and live with each other. Without wishing to sound cliched about it, in effect tolerance, compassion, respect and love. Yet so often this is not what is given out by churches and Christians. There is definately a religious arrogance as you say, and that was not what Jesus taught we should have. Find your own way – that is all you can do.
And yeah, trusting only a handful of people isn’t a bad thing I don’t think – at least you know now ‘who’ to trust. Giving is a great thing – don’t change who you are because of a few people who couldn’t appreciate that. You just have to know when to walk away from people who would abuse your generosity.
Yep, 2007 hasn’t been that great. Let’s hope 2008 will be better.
Re: Christianity and Jesus, I have sometimes heard it said that the problem with Christianity is that it is a religion about Jesus, rather than being the religion of Jesus. Certainly something to think about.
Your post is truly thought-provoking. Perhaps one could rethink the issue by clarifying two points:
1. You end your post with a very welcome honesty. You say: “I feel like I keep on giving and giving to people, and I am the one that gets screwed in the end.” Perhaps placing this as a “test” by God seems a little bit odd. The reason for this is that learning to give and learning to receive might involve realizing that in giving and receiving many of our desires are at play. For instance, if in giving I expect some kind of payback, then some would certainly question the nature of my giving. However, as
you point out, it is senseless to give freely of one’s own to everyone whom one comes across. Surely this will create great suffering in you, a suffering which will appear as a test by a divine force outside yourself. This is so because you will expect “returns” from many whom you believe are your “friends”. You end your post by saying that all this was perhaps “not such a bad thing”. I would agree, but I cannot see this example of a test by God, but rather a test you put on yourself as to how to differentiate good and not so good friends.
2. You argue that if one reads The Book of Job, then one can clearly see that he got “royally screwed”. This is truly an odd interpretation if one reads the complete Book. For the suffering that Job perceives as such might be seen as Job’s inability to understand his finite condition as human being. In other words, he comes to realization that he is not immortal. He will and does get sick, he will and does become poor, he will and does lose relatives to death. To be human is precisely to realize that we —and those we love—- are not gods; however much we wish we were. And perhaps some of us, but not all, can only come to a realization after we have gone through these, not divine “tests”, but rather human experiences. And perhaps some might see the need for a God that has gone through that process and can keep us company throughout. Such a God, if he exists, would be less of a “tester” and more of a benevolent maker.
3. A very interesting book that takes up your issue, but more dramatically by making reference to Abraham’s obedient sacrifice of Isaac, is professor Pangle’s “Political Philosophy and the God of Abraham.”
But for sure the issue is not easy and hopefully I have argued these points clearly.
Andrés
God is always controversial but the important thing is how to life a life with happiness & meaningful to us & to the people around us. Talking of God is always come into unfinished discussion because there is 2 side version. So you could never meet to way out of it. I know that Christian people sometimes would miss God because they never meet Him & want to meet Him (the same as Mother Theresa in her last life).
But I think if I talk as a Christian (because I’m not) it is the same as the existence of mind so if I ask you do u have mind so you would say yes but if I ask you where it is & would couldn’t show where it is.
I love you kelsey.. that mind just never stops does it?
Sometimes bad things just happen to good people, and vice versa. Thats something you have to expect outta life
“Does God test you to the point where you will become an Atheist? Does that make sense?”
I’ve often pointed out that the conventional Christian scenario basically has God offering the ultimate bribe (eternal bliss) and threatening the ultimate consequence (eternal hell). Given that situation, no rational person would EVER choose anything other than bliss. Thus, if anyone fails to choose bliss, it’s either because they were irrational, or simply had no reason to believe that that was actually the situation they faced: that the choice was real. In neither case do I think it is moral to hold a person responsible, and so neither the loss of the chance for the bribe nor the torture either are justified. In short, the salvation model makes no sense.
However, I can think of a case in which the presentation of that model WOULD make sense: if it, itself, were a test from God.
Think about it: what would prove that you are TRULY moral and TRULY care about what is right? Taking the ultimate bribe and shrugging at the poor schmucks who got duped into the ultimate hell? That doesn’t seem particularly praiseworthy.
But taking a stand and saying that the situation, that the whole system is wrong and evil: THAT would show true moral fiber. That you would risk the ultimate punishment simply because you were willing to stand up for others, against pointless suffering: THAT would prove that you truly care about what is right, truly love others.
Maybe that’s the test: God is separating the selfish self-interested yes-men from those who really care, above and beyond any potential consequences to themselves.
Excellent posts and comments.
God didn’t do anything to Job, he allowed Satan to. God doesn’t allow things to happen to those who can’t handle the situation.
Beautiful, graceful self-confrontation. Keep walking in this honesty, and you will get “there”.
May I suggest you visit Amazon and order Stephen Mitchell’s translation of the “Bhagavad Gita” and read it at your leisure, without expectation. Don’t work at it. Just read it, and stay with it. Easy.
BTW I still need that copper please
I have felt your troubles, and I, like many many many others (all of them, I believe) struggled with the same questions you have. You are not alone. We all feel abandoned at times, because we cast our sinfulness on God, who is perfect. Where as we abandon each other all the time, we forget that God never leaves us. We are the ones who turn away from Him through our own sinfulness. I found comfort in a lecture called “The Truth” given by Father Larry Richards. He reminds us that you can know all about Jesus — stories about Jesus abound — but you can’t KNOW him unless you spend time with him, listen to him, allow him to be part of your life. You have to pray to get to know Jesus, but it is important to pray so that you hear, not so that you are heard. He already knows everything about you, anyway. The prophets prayed and said, “Speak Lord, I’m listening” not “Shut Up, Lord, I’m talking.” You might try centering prayer (centeringprayer.org) for some guidance in listening while praying. I experienced a dramatic change in my attitude and outlook when I started getting to know Jesus just by spending time with Him.
Also, it sounds like you are allowing an instance where someone took advantage of you to feel bad for being a giver or like you deserve something in return. Bah. That’s Satan trying to get you to stop giving all together! Being a cheerful giver is a commitment and a choice. The next time you feel like you should get something in return for all that you give, spend some time reflecting on the cross.
Hang in there! I’m praying for you.
I feel like your dilemma is stemmed from the idea that God actually cares enough about our little race to inflict people with horrendous ennui causing situations. How can this be so?? God, the dude who created the universe, cant be some great figure in the sky who has such a dilapitated ego that he needs constant reassurance from organisms as meaningless as we are. This entire conversation is based on the idea that God has put humans here for some stupid moral experiment, which, i think, plays down the importance of the human condition. We are all Gods. Every living thing is a God. Maybe God didnt create the universe, but, rather, is the universe. Maybe there is just as much divinity in the leaf of an oak tree as a page from the King James. Maybe, to truly understand God we have to realize him as ourselves and everything around us to really ever develop a kind of relationship with the supreme force. But, hey, who knows…..its all conjecture. And i dont think this to be any more true than the rest of anthropomorphic theory, but it is a little more compelling to me.
Dont devote your allegiance to anything out of fear, for it will have drastic consequences. Dont let the idea of God run your life. Its true that we should probably live according to the teachings of the bible in regard to how we treat other humans, but the rest is just a rallying cry for the huddled masses- a way to keep them all distracted and to keep some semblance of unity.
Lot’s of great comments. I see your point, Aaron. However, if you believe Christianity at all (which I’m assuming you do, considering you claim God created the universe) then you also must take the bible as some hint of truth, otherwise, where do you get your facts?
I really like the philosophical point you made about God being the universe. I’ve considered that myself before. When it comes down to it, I can’t prove your existence just as you can’t prove mine. Perhaps we are all gods. Some of us real, and some in fact, not real. Far fetched? Why, because people don’t want to consider the fact that either they aren’t in control of their life, or the fact that their so called doctrines of belief and ideology may be false.
As I said before, great posts.
My claim in regards to God creating the universe was purely hypothetical. I was just pointing out that i think its dumb to believe that God, if he exists, cares about us either way. I dont see anything to believe in other than chaos. Obviously i am not so good at the blind faith gig.
I would like to reference Job since it is an example used and bring forth a potentially different view. God himself did not test Job. The story shows that the test is brought forth between a conversation between the adversary and God. After the adversary claims that he has come from wandering the lord in this meeting of the sons of God points out Job as a good man. In response, the adversary brings forth the question, “Doth Job fear God for nought?” He continues to claim the Lord has given him nothing but blessings. The Lord afterward then allows this question to go forth. He never put him to the test, the adversary did. One could claim God has faith in man’s potential to be good souls; whereas, the adversary is the one who constantly doubts us and claims we are not worthy of the gifts of God. Posing this insight, does God test us or does he test our doubters with the examples that he has made of us?